Curse

fowlero · Apr 14, 2011, 03:58 PM // 15:58

Sure, i'm not disagreeing with you i just don't get the point in making that distinction. I mean who cares, really.

Killed u man · Apr 14, 2011, 04:11 PM // 16:11

No, but they simply contain more PvE elements than they do PvP ones, and such being succesfull at these formats doesn't mean you have the right attitude to be succesfull at actual PvP. Heck, I personally don't even concider RA PvP anymore, and even HA is borderline PvE: Go in, bash some buttons and pray you win.

It's been said a million times before, but some people always find a way to avoid it regardless, so I'm just going to throw it out there:

PvP is definatly elitist, but it's not as bad as people make it out to be. As floor pointed out, try and join a UWSC guild as a wammo and watch you get laughed at by their players. When you're going to compete against other players, it's only a natural consequence the better players (For GW, read: builds) will win most of the time. As such, players who have shown themselves incapable of opening up to criticism, and even complete overhauls on their playstyles, simply can not expect guilds aiming to win in PvP to take them, Bassma seems to be a good example of the previous.

Elitism, in a way, is what defintes PvP in such that you simply need a baseline of skill which you simply can not recruit below. If a player is bad, and refuses to change his playstyle and learn, he simply does not belong in a PvP guild, but rather in a PvE guild that does casual PvP. (And will loose all the time, but don't mind it)

Now, don't get me wrong, there definatly is some negative elitism in GvG aswell, quite alot actually. Simply reading through QQ-forum threads shows what I'm talking about, but this elitism is usually only directed at other elitist people. Essentially, the majority of the players left now are bad (Which is why they still play, as they couldn't achieve anything 4 years ago, and thus they achieved their personal "dream" of being good at high-end GvG and wanna live it as long as possible), and as Floor pointed out, the worse people are, the worse their attitude is. (Some kind of psychological defence: If I flame everyone, people might not notice how bad I actually am)

So you got all these "top" players flaming eachother, but rarely ever do new players get targetted or kicked out of the GvG scene. It only really happens when they truly ask for it, such as recently shown by the PvE HA'ers (Shadow, Banane, all those bbsway clowns) who get flamed, simply because they're acting so retarded. But again, that's not reason to call the GvG scene uninviting. The gurucup alone has shown the GvG scene is opening their arms, embracing any new player that wants to join it. (Altough I have already explained my personal problems with the gurucup, the incentive is there)

If anything, PvE'ers simply aren't motivated enough. If you want more people to GvG, the first question you have to ask yourself is: "WHY" would more people want to GvG. And the truth is that, aside from byob, GvG isn't fun anymore, and hasn't been for a long time. The fact that the community is so small is already part of the problem (you essentially got the top tier, and the bottom one, but no middle one for people to improve) because newer players will simply get rolled by smurfs over and over again.

So "fun" definatly will not be a motivation, and as such, the only other option we have is Anet throwing out rewards. (Or completely rebalancing Tie-breaker, almost every skill getting used now and even some maps, which simply won't happen)

History has shown time and time again that if the rewards are right, people will swarm it. And then it's just a matter of tweaking the rewards in such way they're definatly worth getting, but not farmable. (Cool guild hall shit, for example) Look at GW at it's prime time. Throw real life money (which is the ultimate reward) at people and your game will be active.

Bassma · Apr 14, 2011, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sk8tborderx

I said they had a little bit of PvP thrown in. I would just classify them as PvEvP as most times you accomplish more by ignoring enemy players and focusing on NPC's.

And yet another typical Elistist response to what is PVP. PVP stands for "Player vs Player" all arena's are that no matter what YOUR interpretation is. Player vs Player is just that and just because there are added NPC's in two of the Arenas JQ and FA doesn't make them any less Player vs Player. Then we have RA and by Elitist standards it's not PVP either lol. But, yet again this just proves my point more of why GvG is dying. Until the elitists wakeup (which really it's too late) then it will continue to spiral downward until there's nothing left but the diehards Elitists.

I remember the good old days when GW was new and nobody tried to tell you what to do or how to play. We had loads of fun playing HA and GvG then. Then all of a sudden these Elitists started to appear and take over and try to tell everyone how to play and to synergize and to maximize blah blah. Then the spiraling downward started. Casual players don't want such as that. They just want to have fun, try out all kinds of builds and just laugh at some of the ones that are being used but still play and have fun. It was the Elitists that ruined all that for the GvG engine and much of HA as well though not nearly as bad as GvG.

Same thing happened to the PVE game as well though. Smug PVE players who thought their chit doesn't stink began to try to infiltrate and tell others how to even play PVE. Thank goodness for HEROES and now we have 7 thank goodness for Anet understanding most of us don't want to play with Elitist players in any game.

Just remember the title of this thread. It is the GvG crowd that is suffering not us socalled non-pvppvepvp players. We get all the fun of PVP we want, how we want and when we want. We don't have to wait for 30 minutes of jump through hoops to get a tournament started or even care to. Plus it surely doesn't help your cause the way some of you GvG players are STILL acting with that Elitist nose up in the air. You aren't going to gain recruit that way for sure.

Sk8tborderx · Apr 14, 2011, 04:24 PM // 16:24

I will ask again, why would someone start playing GvG when there has been almost 0 support the past 3 years? To make it worse almost every balance update manages to make the game more imbalanced. Their time is better spent doing to speed clears or working on titles for their HoM.

Without some massive update for GvG there is no saving it. That update would need to include some skill updates aimed at keeping physicals in check too. You cannot expect players new to GvG to handle triple melee with 2 copies of guardian, it isn't going to happen.

Reverend Dr · Apr 14, 2011, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bassma

I remember the good old days when GW was new and nobody tried to tell you what to do or how to play.

When was that? I'm pretty sure this started the day that GW was released. Take off the nostalgia glasses.

The base argument for JQ/FA/RA/AB not being PvP is based around team synergy. Team synergy is the heart of PvP in Guild Wars and it is just not possible with a random team formation that is a part of those arenas.

As far as not being forced to run one build (aka not being a unique snowflake) look at it from the other perspective. According to your argument it is not okay for 7 people to ask you to bring a build, but it is ok for one person (you) to make those 7 people change their team build. If you are joining 7 other people are you asking to join and making demands of them is awfully selfish.

Running standard meta builds is largely about efficiency. Most "new" builds don't work out. Usually the problem lies at the core of the build, but even when it doesn't new builds must be finely tuned before they can perform at great efficiency. It takes time for new builds to be fine tuned enough to be as effective as existing builds; during that adjustment time there is going to be a lot of losses and no one like losing. With less players it takes longer to form teams and it takes longer to get matches so this loss time is going to eat up a much larger part of playtime. Is it really that hard to understand that most players don't want to spend hours and hours testing a new build where most likely they are going to end up losing all the time?

Aside from that the #1 indicator of success in PvP is attitude. With that type of attitude you are just not going to get anywhere.

cataphract · Apr 14, 2011, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

When was that? I'm pretty sure this started the day that GW was released. Take off the nostalgia glasses.

I'm not wearing any and still manage to recollect that ancient time Bassma speaks of. My very first gvg was me playing with a level 16 elementalist. Guildie with a lvl 20 toon was regarded as a pro. Everyone ran pve skillbars. We managed to wipe all but one of our enemies. That last one kept casting some crazy enchantments that actually healed him when he was attacked. The shock! The horror!

Sk8tborderx · Apr 14, 2011, 06:28 PM // 18:28

I remember my very first GvG. None of us had ever done it before and had no idea what was going on, but it was still a good time. I thought I was a genius for making a W/Me warriors endurance blackout sword war. It actually worked pretty well. I didn't even switch targets, I locked onto a monk and just kept using blackout on recharge. About a week later I was using my favorite build of all time, water trident sword war. Thinking back I also remember how much I hated evade and block.

Reverend Dr · Apr 14, 2011, 06:34 PM // 18:34

You wiped a whole team, less one player, with only one level 20 character. This is relevant anecdotal evidence that proves me wrong.

cataphract · Apr 14, 2011, 07:19 PM // 19:19

I don't care if it proves your wrong or not. My intention was proving you to be condescending and rude towards Bassma.

I think we can both agree I pulled it off with ease.

*lemming* · Apr 14, 2011, 07:26 PM // 19:26

You didn't. What's fun or memorable about GvGing with sub-level 20 characters and PvE bars - besides the nostalgia factor?

Cale Roughstar · Apr 14, 2011, 07:35 PM // 19:35

(Please note that when I say "you", I do not mean any one person in particular, simply the player who complains about elitism)

When there were more players, it was possible to play with bad bars and no real setup, becuase there were enough others like you that fair games would happen. Sure, this was great.

The reality is that now there are not enough players to do this anymore. If you run crappy bars, or are simply a bad player, you WILL lose. You will lose every single time. This will continue until you quit, you change your bar, or you get good enough that your bad bar can beat worse players with better bars. Now, picture those so called "elitists" who seem to be the number one target in this thread. If you come along with your bad bar and say that there is no way you are going to change it, what possible incentive do they have to play with you? They are playing to have fun, just like you, and their idea of fun involves winning. You demonstration of a holier-than-thou isn't going to make you any friends. Even nice and super-relaxed people will not play with you, when that is your attitude. Simply put, from the perspective of the elitists, it is not worth bringing you. By bringing you, they will have less fun.

Interesting question:
How do you think that those people got to be elitists in the first place? Did they magically appear out of nowhere? Have they all been there since the beginning of the game? (No) The great thing about a video game is that everyone starts off on equal footing. There is absolutely nothing that can hold you back from succeding but yourself. Look at the person you claim is an elitist. He was just like you at one point: no PvP experience, but dreams of winning etc. What makes him different than you, is that rather than complaining that other elitists wont take him under their wings and teach him to be good, is that he went out and learned to be good. It is a long road to get to the top, and compaining about elitism is just complaining about not being able to take a shortcut. You want to win Halls? Start unranked and work your way through the ranks, getting better at the game, playing in better teams until you win more than you lose. Want to win a gold cape? Start GvG'ing, keep moving up the ranks, getting better at the game, playing in better guilds until you finally get there. Anyone who is unwilling to take the long way to get where they want will be viewed with contempt by the people who took the time to do so.

I'll throw myself out there as an example. I have considerable HA and GvG experience, but I am nowhere near the top of either format, and am still a long way from being able to compete with the best of them. Sure, I would love it if a top 5 guild were to take me on and teach me everything they know, but I don't expect that. I expect that if I want to go anywhere, I will have to earn it all by myself. Which is why you will find me playing the game, actively trying to make my goals a reality.

ruk1a · Apr 14, 2011, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

You didn't. What's fun or memorable about GvGing with sub-level 20 characters and PvE bars - besides the nostalgia factor?

it was fun. ^elitist

cataphract · Apr 14, 2011, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

You didn't. What's fun or memorable about GvGing with sub-level 20 characters and PvE bars - besides the nostalgia factor?

I totally did. Check it out:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

When was that? I'm pretty sure this started the day that GW was released. Take off the nostalgia glasses.

I admit it was all too easy because he decided to base his condescending attitude on a wrong premise but there you have it. If I were a mod, people would not be getting away with these kind of things and I sure wouldn't be trying to derail the thread by holding on to that same wrong premise. But that's just me. About to get some more infraction in Riverside. And I wasn't even agreeing with anyone. Go figure. XD

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cale Roughstar

(Please note that when I say "you", I do not mean any one person in particular, simply the player who complains about elitism)

When there were more players, it was possible to play with bad bars and no real setup, becuase there were enough others like you that fair games would happen. Sure, this was great.

My first post in this thread wasn't about elitists. It was about retards so full of themselves that they couldn't be wrong. Ever. Would you call a leader who kicks his officer out of the guild because said officer happend to know how much Healing Seed healed at 16 attribute elitist or an idiot brat? Honest answer please. Not what your friends want to hear.

Sk8tborderx · Apr 14, 2011, 07:48 PM // 19:48

He never claimed EVERYONE had those requirements, just that they did exist from the beginning.

I am sorry but I had to lol at your last statement, that really happened?

Still Number One · Apr 14, 2011, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by cataphract

I totally did. Check it out:

I admit it was all too easy because he decided to base his condescending attitude on a wrong premise but there you have it. If I were a mod, people would not be getting away with these kind of things and I sure wouldn't be trying to derail the thread by holding on to that same wrong premise. But that's just me. About to get some more infraction in Riverside. And I wasn't even agreeing with anyone. Go figure. XD

You giving an example about your inexperienced guild facing another inexperienced guild does not prove him wrong. Even today there are teams that don't play meta bars and do whatever they please. His point was that even at the beginning of the game there were teams that sought perfection and would demand certain builds from their members. You didn't disprove him, and you can't because what he said is a proven fact. Exceptions don't disprove him unless he said every single guild did it, which he did not. all he said was that it occurred even back then, which it did.

Cale Roughstar · Apr 14, 2011, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by cataphract

My first post in this thread wasn't about elitists. It was about retards so full of themselves that they couldn't be wrong. Ever. Would you call a leader who kicks his officer out of the guild because said officer happend to know how much Healing Seed healed at 16 attribute elitist or an idiot brat? Honest answer please. Not what your friends want to hear.

Again, I wasn't talking directly to you. I am sorry if you took personal offense to any of my statements.

That person who kicked out an officer for knowing Healing Seed at 16 is either on crack, 12, or both.

cataphract · Apr 14, 2011, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sk8tborderx

He never claimed EVERYONE had those requirements, just that they did exist from the beginning.

I am sorry but I had to lol at your last statement, that really happened?

He said that and there I was proving him it wasn't so. No one raged, no one trolled, no one insisted on having a shield set or QQing how PvErs get all the nice armor and weapon skins, boohoo. We teamed up and played for the fun of playing together and exploring the game. In conclusion to this debate: No. Condescending attitude was not prevalnt in GW pvp since day one.

Yes, that really happened. I lol'd too. The guy was a narcissistic douche who had to have everything his way. Most people I've pvp'ed with were... Well, similar. And since I'd rather be alone than in bad company I quit pvp. Douches in pve are easily avoided. And replaced by henchmen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

You giving an example about your inexperienced guild facing another inexperienced guild does not prove him wrong.

Dude, it's basic logic. Google it if you don't believe me. But first let's try this with pictures:

Person A: "All crows are black."
Person B: "Ohai, A. Please meet my white crow pet."
Person C: "B, you're wrong. He said all crows are black."

Sounds retarded, doesn't it?

cataphract · Apr 14, 2011, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cale Roughstar

Again, I wasn't talking directly to you. I am sorry if you took personal offense to any of my statements.

It's cool, don't worry. For me to take a personal offense anywhere on an internet forum would be the day I cancel my ISP account. I can be dumb at times, but not that dumb.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cale Roughstar

That person who kicked out an officer for knowing Healing Seed at 16 is either on crack, 12, or both.

Saddest part is - he wasn't any of those things. That's what made it funny. So is this flak I'm receiving and I haven't even mentioned all the screaming, cussing, threats, rage quitting and other fun stuff I managed to witness both in HA and GvG. Don't get me wrong - I had some great times in pvp but the majority was just way too awful and stressful for me to deal with. Especially in an enviroment that I was visiting to relax, play and have fun.

Gonna go to bed now as I need some sleep. I wish you all good night and sweet dreams and I shall see you when my ban expires. nn

Cale Roughstar · Apr 14, 2011, 08:09 PM // 20:09

There is a serious misenterpretation going on in this thread.

Bassima said
In the beginning, nobody was elitist/condescending.

Rev Dr. said
Yes, there were such people in the beginning.

Cataphract said
In my experience, there were no such people

Rev never said anything about "everyone" being an elitist.

Treating "some x are y" statements as "all x are y" statements is incorrect

Quote:

Originally Posted by cataphract

Don't get me wrong - I had some great times in pvp but the majority was just way too awful and stressful for me to deal with. Especially in an enviroment that I was visiting to relax, play and have fun.

Good on you! Too many people do forget that it is just a game.

*lemming* · Apr 14, 2011, 08:11 PM // 20:11

I feel like we've gotten enough off topic now. Can we get back to the point?